Spoke to the Power Commander Importer to day Dynojet will introduce a Power Commander for BMW twins early 2005 (at last).
Will be and I quote Broadband which apparently means that it will still retain the Lambda sensor.
Could be good could be bad could be crap who knows
Bob
Powercommander
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Boxadog 2000
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theseadog
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lot of yapping about it on pelican, including this, personally I'd sooner spend the money on some advanced training.
This is a reply I got from Michael Belcher
Director of Fuel Injection Development
at Dyno jet. Several of us over at the Roadstar Warrior board saw that they had come up with a PCIII and a Wideband commander in one black box and wanted the same thing for the Warrior. Currently dyno jet makes a PCIII and a separate WBC but we all thought it would be nice to ask them to make a combo unit like the newly released one for BMW. His reponse is very interesting from a technical perspective:
Gentlemen,
there seems to be quite a buzz concerning the new BMW Wideband Power Commander and its possible use on other motorcycle models. There are a number of reasons why the unit was designed for the BMW models the way it was and many reasons why we do not use this setup on other bikes.
Let us start with why the BMW uses a wide band O2 sensor as part of the unit. The bike already has a "closed loop" circuit as part of the OEM injection system. It does not "auto map" the entire rpm/throttle position range of the fuel map. Generally speaking, the closed loop system only adjusts the fuel curve below 40% throttle. Above that the system is "open loop". The new Wide Band BMW unit only controls the stock "closed loop" area. Outside of that the bike is mapped in the normal fashion, on the dyno.
We would actually prefer not to maintain the closed loop section. Due to the design of the OEM injection system it is not possible to bypass it as we do with other models. Closed Loop systems are not the "magic" that most people believe they are. There are a number of problems that keep it from being the best choice for high performance applications.
This brings us to why we do not use this type of system on other applications. Unlike car systems that have a mass airflow sensor, motorcycles cannot monitor the amount of air ingested (as a side note, most automotive application are also not fully closed loop systems). O2 sensors only read the amount of residual oxygen in the exhaust and calculate the air/fuel ratio based on that data. The problem is that the reading at the O2 sensor has already occurred in the engine. This is not a problem when making adjustments during steady throttle riding while on the highway as there is adequate time to change the mixture and then check to make sure it is correct. During times of aggressive throttle movement, both on and off throttle, this data is useless and an "open loop" system must be used.
Things such as installing a sensor into your bike, the cost of the sensor (and its replacement), the lack of individual cylinder control, disabling of "air injection" systems, etc., all play a part in the why a Wide Band Power Commander is not practical for all applications. For many, simply finding a shop to weld on a fitting for the O2 sensor onto their brand new chrome exhaust system without damaging it is a problem.
A big problem is that if all fuel adjustments are based on the O2 sensor reading items such as an exhaust leak, "air injection" systems, poorly located O2 sensors, and faulty or degraded O2 sensors can have the bike running very poorly. Short exhaust system are notorious for having reversion issues (air pulsing back up the exhaust) which then cause false readings leading to overly rich mixtures.
Since the BMW was designed from the start to have a closed loop layout and exhaust styles do not vary to any great degree it is not difficult to implement our Wide Band technology. On other bikes simply adding an
O2 sensor is not the best choice on tuning. From a cost standpoint it is less expensive to purchase the standard Power Commander and have a custom map (individual cylinder mapping for best performance) made than to buy the more expensive Wide Band system and have a fitting installed into the exhaust.
On the dyno all of the changes can be double checked to make sure that the performance is at its peak. Improper adjustments will be corrected before they cause a running problem out on the road. While at first glance it would appear that a Closed Loop system is the answer to all tuning questions, in actual practice it is just not that simple.
Regards,
Michael Belcher
Director of Fuel Injection Development
Toodle Pip
This is a reply I got from Michael Belcher
Director of Fuel Injection Development
at Dyno jet. Several of us over at the Roadstar Warrior board saw that they had come up with a PCIII and a Wideband commander in one black box and wanted the same thing for the Warrior. Currently dyno jet makes a PCIII and a separate WBC but we all thought it would be nice to ask them to make a combo unit like the newly released one for BMW. His reponse is very interesting from a technical perspective:
Gentlemen,
there seems to be quite a buzz concerning the new BMW Wideband Power Commander and its possible use on other motorcycle models. There are a number of reasons why the unit was designed for the BMW models the way it was and many reasons why we do not use this setup on other bikes.
Let us start with why the BMW uses a wide band O2 sensor as part of the unit. The bike already has a "closed loop" circuit as part of the OEM injection system. It does not "auto map" the entire rpm/throttle position range of the fuel map. Generally speaking, the closed loop system only adjusts the fuel curve below 40% throttle. Above that the system is "open loop". The new Wide Band BMW unit only controls the stock "closed loop" area. Outside of that the bike is mapped in the normal fashion, on the dyno.
We would actually prefer not to maintain the closed loop section. Due to the design of the OEM injection system it is not possible to bypass it as we do with other models. Closed Loop systems are not the "magic" that most people believe they are. There are a number of problems that keep it from being the best choice for high performance applications.
This brings us to why we do not use this type of system on other applications. Unlike car systems that have a mass airflow sensor, motorcycles cannot monitor the amount of air ingested (as a side note, most automotive application are also not fully closed loop systems). O2 sensors only read the amount of residual oxygen in the exhaust and calculate the air/fuel ratio based on that data. The problem is that the reading at the O2 sensor has already occurred in the engine. This is not a problem when making adjustments during steady throttle riding while on the highway as there is adequate time to change the mixture and then check to make sure it is correct. During times of aggressive throttle movement, both on and off throttle, this data is useless and an "open loop" system must be used.
Things such as installing a sensor into your bike, the cost of the sensor (and its replacement), the lack of individual cylinder control, disabling of "air injection" systems, etc., all play a part in the why a Wide Band Power Commander is not practical for all applications. For many, simply finding a shop to weld on a fitting for the O2 sensor onto their brand new chrome exhaust system without damaging it is a problem.
A big problem is that if all fuel adjustments are based on the O2 sensor reading items such as an exhaust leak, "air injection" systems, poorly located O2 sensors, and faulty or degraded O2 sensors can have the bike running very poorly. Short exhaust system are notorious for having reversion issues (air pulsing back up the exhaust) which then cause false readings leading to overly rich mixtures.
Since the BMW was designed from the start to have a closed loop layout and exhaust styles do not vary to any great degree it is not difficult to implement our Wide Band technology. On other bikes simply adding an
O2 sensor is not the best choice on tuning. From a cost standpoint it is less expensive to purchase the standard Power Commander and have a custom map (individual cylinder mapping for best performance) made than to buy the more expensive Wide Band system and have a fitting installed into the exhaust.
On the dyno all of the changes can be double checked to make sure that the performance is at its peak. Improper adjustments will be corrected before they cause a running problem out on the road. While at first glance it would appear that a Closed Loop system is the answer to all tuning questions, in actual practice it is just not that simple.
Regards,
Michael Belcher
Director of Fuel Injection Development
Toodle Pip
Cheers
PAul
Keep it sticky side down.
PAul
Keep it sticky side down.
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stempy
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Re: Powercommander
Could be expensiveBoxadog 2000 wrote:Spoke to the Power Commander Importer to day Dynojet will introduce a Power Commander for BMW twins early 2005 (at last).
Will be and I quote Broadband which apparently means that it will still retain the Lambda sensor.
Could be good could be bad could be crap who knows
Bob
