1200S - Hilltop Remap

[DaveH]

This thread is becoming as cynical as some of those on the GS forum !!

Std figures
1) HP2 - Claimed 132 bhp = real 118hp = 14 bhp loss
2) 12S - Claimed 122 BHP - Real 104 BHP = 18 BHP Loss

Hardly a yawning chasm in terms of drive train loss is it ?

"I have seen curves at the rear wheel for standard 1200s' and they seem to be between 102 and 104HP. So nearly 105 with an Akra is in the ballpark. "

Thanks for retaining a grip on reality Herb -

After the base run, Geoff asked me what I thought the 12S was producing. I have been around bikes for 40 years now and have a fairly accurate seat of the pants dyno. My guess was 105. This despite the fact that the bike was fast as feck beforehand.

As a comparison, GSs were putting out around 84 bhp base runs on the same dyno that day. The record for the latest twin cam engine is 88bhp. I prefer to think of these figures as real world rather than the usual hyped claims of manufacturers.
There are of course the cynics who would suggest they are artificially low to make the power hikes seem greater.

One slight problem with his theory though.
The good old seat of the pants dyno...
No matter how good/bad or deceitful a dyno operator is, he(she?) can't hide how the bike feels afterwards...and...
my bike has been transformed... it is smoother everywhere, pulls harder and accelerates in top gear MUCH faster than before (I have the optional higher final drive fitted to the bike ) So to be quite frank I dont really care what the figures show, the remap has been worth every penny.

I paid £330 as we booked a group of four in - that group rate applies if there are another four forum members wanting to have a bash...and yes he does do 1100's and 1150's although the gains are described as significant but not as dramatic as the 1200's.

I will be removing the PCIII wideband setup from my GS as soon as time & funds allow and also getting that done..

Below are comments of two of the other guys who went with me on the day red is a 1200RT, blue is 1200GS (which had a bit of run out in the back wheel)

Hi Guys – was great to meet with you all yesterday – hope everyone had a safe ride home! Thanks especially to Simon for the organisation and wheeler dealing for the discount.

Thanks for the feedback all, this is really interesting.

I’m not yet 100% sure what I think! Here is what I do know:

Ø Pick-up from low revs in any gear is now doable (3rd was highest to pull from 30mph before – now doable in 5th)

Ø Snatching seems to have gone but I have only really done hi-speed running so far.

Ø Roll on in top gear is astronomical!!! I actually can’t believe how quickly it picks up and just goes!

Ø I did have a bit of a hole in 5th gear – just was not a responsive gear in the past – now it just pulls and pulls and seems to go on till the limiter (not quite made it up there yet though!).

Ø The overriding impression from the moment I rode away from Hilltop was that the engine just ‘wants’ to rev. Before I had to force it to press on now it’s a bit of holding back to get the same results.

It has definitely done something for the better and quite honestly it has done what I wanted even if I don’t notice anything else. I just wanted a bit more pep and I got that and some...

Geoff reckoned that my Twinc was the record holder for standard BHP at 88 and 73ft/lb, so he didn’t think he’d squeeze too much more out of it. But the outcome was 104 bhp and 80.7ft/lb. I don’t think the % uplift is accurate when applying it to the crank bhp but it must put it somewhere up at 127 bhp or so. Bugger that’s ridiculous! ;-}

Cause it was the first twinc RT he’d had through (I think that’s what he said anyway) he decided to do a top speed run on it too. So, compensated for aerodynamics by using a 6% gradient on the run he topped it out at 150.8 mph ?????????????????????????? Feck!

I won’t be able to ride again until week after next so will post more if I get some further data. VERY interested in knowing how your fuel consumption is affected (though playing with the extra power will likely hurt it a little) so keep us posted if you notice a difference.

Hi folks
Firstly, Simon, many thanks for organising and sorting out the discount for us all. Secondly, Dave, many thanks for the full diagnostic check afterwards to put my mind at rest...that's a brilliant set up you have there (and some gorgeous bikes). I went home via Matlock Bath and some smaller Derbyshire roads so didn't get home until around 5...but (as we had discussed)...I was fine because it was, "after lunch"...exactly as I had predicted.

Well, I didn't see 135 but, out of curiosity, I checked my Sat Nav and I did record an actual 110 as Dave's bike disappeared into the distance. There was definitely some vibration at that speed which I assume is from the back wheel but there's no sign of any problem at normal speeds. Having got home, the wheel seems only fractionally out...you really have to look for it...the dyno really emphasised the problem...I'm glad it did.

The effect on the GS is indistinguishable (for me) from my previous GS even though that had the Catless Keihan headers) so I wont be tinkering with this one any more. There are cheaper ways available to me to lose combined rider/ bike weight

I'm really pleased with the results...the bike is just so much more responsive and eager and the revs build very smoothly and progressively up to the gear change. This is exactly what I was hoping for and it suits my riding style perfectly. I spend quite a bit of my time on very tight B roads, probably gravel strewn. I sampled some of these on my way home and (like my old GS), I find second is now a really useful gear, with plenty of grunt to get you up unexpected uphill stretches.

I think I mentioned that my old GS averaged 45-48mph but for some reason this one seemed to do a bit better before the Hilltop experience. Well, I filled up on the way home and for the last stretch saw a surprising 55mpg. That won't be representative but it seems to be a positive indication. I'll be doing my regular trip to Rochdale this week so it'll be interesting to wee how it goes.

In short, very satisfied customer and I definitely want to be there to see n RT do 150mph!
Cheers all


At the end of the day, yer pays yer money and all that. Personally I just want my bikes to run the best they can... I don't really give a feck about horsepower claims.

The debate on the GS forum will send your head wrong, but there is one thing that isn't up for debate. I have yet to see any negative claims from owners who have actually had the work done ... and no I don't have any connection with Hilltop.

Your choose

[Dai wiskers]

It seems a lot of people are getting excited with brake horse power it always happens

what impressed me with the graph shown was the nice linear torque curve that is something to aim for with any bike other than an out and out drag bike the BHP figures are more or less irrelevant

If the bike feels better to ride it's better wether[spelin] the BHP is up or down

I for one would be taking my bike there if funds would allow to get the fueling set up correctly

[Blackal]

Exactly right Dai,

No-one uses the last 1000 rpm on a boxer - (2-3000 on a supersports) - it's all about midrange wallop.

Must go and read the Hilltop remap thread on UKGSer - I hadn't bothered to read it before.

Al

[Dai wiskers]

Exactly right Dai,

No-one uses the last 1000 rpm on a boxer - (2-3000 on a supersports) - it's all about midrange wallop.

Must go and read the Hilltop remap thread on UKGSer - I hadn't bothered to read it before.

Al

Learnt that when i was my mates spannerman far better to be able to use all the power you have than to have power you can't use!

[gus]

Hi all
My bike with a full akrapovic system with the latest bmw software downloaded made 114.5 bhp at the wheel.
With the power commander fitted and a map made 119 bhp at the wheel.
Same dyno same day.
The bike fuels and runs very very well, which what i was after instead of max horsepower figures. As i said before your initial run before being remapped is very low. Going from 104 to 122 is a giant leap with just remapping. Maybe your bike had a very bad bmw map installed. The final result is very good and what you should expect with the mods on your bke. Im glad your happy with the bike and the way it runs now, The top german boys who tune their r1200s to the max have concluded that the 1200 drive line is very effiecent and reckon on around 10 bhp lost if everything is as it should be.
The german boys are the people who have done there R&D and have got some very good results with reliable and not so reliable tuning.
Gus

[DaveH]

Hi all
Going from 104 to 122 is a giant leap with just remapping. Maybe your bike had a very bad bmw map installed.
Gus

I can't really buy into the 'bad map' theory, although I do share a little of your cycnicism.

It seems that ALL BMW's that go into Hilltop are running BMW 'bad maps' as the base dyno runs are consistently about 15-20 bhp down on what BMW claim (at the crank) - it doesn't matter what model is being tested.

The final runs tend to hike the power back up to what BMW claim, but at the back wheel.

The proof of the pudding is etc...my bike DOES feel THAT much better after the remap.

I hear what you say about fuelling maps and PCIII's etc. I actually tend to agree, especially where Power Commanders are involved. I have quite a bit of experience with them and I'm not a fan.

I think we may be losing sight of what may going on here - exactly what Geoff does inside the ECU is a closely guarded secret. In his other BSB and race series dyno work he does all sorts of wizardry with ALL aspect of the maps - not just fuelling.

My guess is there is a few degrees of advance dialled in here and there as well - I recently met a guy who writes tuning maps for a living and he was alluding to the fact that he could spend five minutes writing maps for most vehicles that would show this percentage increase. Manufacturers safety tolerances etc.

I suppose the only way we'll ever know is for some well heeled dude to have an independent before and after run done to see if the figure quoted are massaged or manipulated.

In the meantime, I'll carry on riding and enjoying mine - Je regrette rien.

[gus]

Hi all
My bike with a full akrapovic system with the latest bmw software downloaded made 114.5 bhp at the wheel.
With the power commander fitted and a map made 119 bhp at the wheel.
Same dyno same day.
The bike fuels and runs very very well, which what i was after instead of max horsepower figures. As i said before your initial run before being remapped is very low. Going from 104 to 122 is a giant leap with just remapping. Maybe your bike had a very bad bmw map installed. The final result is very good and what you should expect with the mods on your bke. Im glad your happy with the bike and the way it runs now, The top german boys who tune their r1200s to the max have concluded that the 1200 drive line is very effiecent and reckon on around 10 % crank bhp lost if everything is as it should be.
The german boys are the people who have done there R&D and have got some very good results with reliable and not so reliable tuning.
Gus

i have ammended the post to show driveline loss. I was mistaken and have been corrected. My bad.

[popsky]

Hi Dave & Gus,

From what I understand reading on here and the Pelican, the 12s came originally with a base map reading approx 122-124 at the crank, then for what ever reason when a bike had a BMW service (possibly 06 through 08) and was plugged back into the diagnostics a new map was loaded which gave approx 114-116 at the crank, if this is correct that would give Dave his 102 at the wheel. My last BMW service put a new revised map in which should give 122-124 at the crank, but whatever it was certainly much better than before, although I still have the flat spot at 5500rpm with the resultant "kick" at 6k. The most impressive thing I find with Daves work is the linear way in which both the rpm and torque curves show.

I think in the off season I will try to get Hilltop to do mine.

[notoriusb.e.n]

How much is it to get this sort of work done? I'd like to get my 11S done at some point, partly to see what its putting out with the k&n + vandelinde chip and exhaust and partly to get rid of the snatchiness and flat spots.

I could have put money on you wanting in on this!

Me likewise..could do with a bit more poke.

[SAS Tom]

Thought you would have replied sooner!

Got to get these brakes sorted first though.

[Daveg2812]

It would certainly be interesting to see what gains could be made on the standard 11s given its less modern engine engine etc, though the 11s is mapped (I assume) to give more more power than the 1150's in standard trim, so gains, as has already been said, would probably be less in terms of outright power. Improvements in rideability would be a good thing to have though. Wonder what the difference would be between a standard 11S remapped and one that has been bling(ed) up with the usual performance bits. Might make the cost of the perfomance bits seem a bit salty.

[gus]

Hi all
Going from 104 to 122 is a giant leap with just remapping. Maybe your bike had a very bad bmw map installed.
Gus

I can't really buy into the 'bad map' theory, although I do share a little of your cycnicism.

It seems that ALL BMW's that go into Hilltop are running BMW 'bad maps' as the base dyno runs are consistently about 15-20 bhp down on what BMW claim (at the crank) - it doesn't matter what model is being tested.

The final runs tend to hike the power back up to what BMW claim, but at the back wheel.

The proof of the pudding is etc...my bike DOES feel THAT much better after the remap.

I hear what you say about fuelling maps and PCIII's etc. I actually tend to agree, especially where Power Commanders are involved. I have quite a bit of experience with them and I'm not a fan.

I think we may be losing sight of what may going on here - exactly what Geoff does inside the ECU is a closely guarded secret. In his other BSB and race series dyno work he does all sorts of wizardry with ALL aspect of the maps - not just fuelling.

My guess is there is a few degrees of advance dialled in here and there as well - I recently met a guy who writes tuning maps for a living and he was alluding to the fact that he could spend five minutes writing maps for most vehicles that would show this percentage increase. Manufacturers safety tolerances etc.

I suppose the only way we'll ever know is for some well heeled dude to have an independent before and after run done to see if the figure quoted are massaged or manipulated.

In the meantime, I'll carry on riding and enjoying mine - Je regrette rien.

Hi
The results you have obtained from the remap are not in doubt. Fuelling as well as ignition mapping has been carried out without any restrictions regarding fuel type/emissions etc to worry about. The rexer remapping tools do all off that,hence why I asked if he used that particular system. The guys ability or how he does it has not been called into question. I would like to know what system he is using out pf interest though. You say he created his own remapping software program. Very impressed iif he has.What I and others find unusual is the before run data. As I said it could be due to a poor software reflash of the ecu but you seem to not want to believe that. This could be why herb had seen similar readings. My bike has only had fuelling map, where as yours has had a fuel remap and ignition map redone. This would account for different power curves and outright power output. I don't think it would be a huge amount though. Looking at your dyno curves compared to mine thet are not that much different. If you look at my results you will see I gained only 4 odd bhp overall compared to my base run without the PC3. The overall throttle response and gains in midrange really make the bike .
All the best
Gus

[Daveg2812]

But then how do you account for all the 1200's on the Pelican site going in with around 85 and coming out with much better rideability and around 105. Can't help thinking that, until bikes of known backgrounds are cross referenced on different dyno's, this debate could rumble on for a while.

[DaveH]

Hi all
Hi
The results you have obtained from the remap are not in doubt. Fuelling as well as ignition mapping has been carried out without any restrictions regarding fuel type/emissions etc to worry about. The rexer remapping tools do all off that,hence why I asked if he used that particular system. The guys ability or how he does it has not been called into question. I would like to know what system he is using out pf interest though. You say he created his own remapping software program. Very impressed iif he has.What I and others find unusual is the before run data. As I said it could be due to a poor software reflash of the ecu but you seem to not want to believe that. This could be why herb had seen similar readings.
Gus

Hi Gus,
To confirm what I am saying here as I've probably not made myself clear enough.

1) Geoff overwrites the standard BMW firmware before reflashing. NO ONE knows what he does when he remaps. I wasn't saying that he remaps ignition curves, it is just a suspicion based on how the bike feels afterwards.

2) Ignore MY results - I repeat IGNORE my results

look at ALL the BMW's that he remaps. They ALL consistently give base runs that are up to 20 bhp under BMW claimed output at the crank.

Now This is where the cynicism starts to creep in. Either they are made to look artificially low by skillful manipulation of the dyno or software or are about ball park in the real world. --- bottom line - who cares ??? --- its how the bike runs AFTER that matters and ALL bikes that go here show a similar increase in output based on the initial run. I know that the gains seem high across the board and I agree that it seems too good to be true.

I was just saying that regarding your 'bad map' theory, the chances that ALL bikes taken there are 'badly mapped' are statistically, mind-bogglingly low. We had two GS's an RT and my 12S the day I had mine done. Were they all suffering from initial 'bad mapping' to see similar increases percentage wise.......er .....no I don't think so.

Likewise with the dozens of other bikes that have been through the Hilltop process. I am open minded to everything else but cant accept this as a theory for the increases...sorry.

Have a look at the following link on the BBPower web site in Germany - look familiar ??

http://www.bbp.homepage.t-online.de/r12s5e.htm

Looks like I should be quite pleased with a 104bhp base run....

Can we just settle for the fact that everyone who goes there sees a significant performance hike and stop getting hung up on what may or may not be reliable bhp figures.

[Vince]

Hilltop is not keen to remap an RT12 with Lennies Rocket sprockets which was dissapointing to hear.
I was hoping they could sort out the fueling to match the cam advance and improve on the modification.
I keep meaning to give them another call as after the phone call I started to wonder why advancing the cam timing would cause issues with a new bespoke fuelling map specific for the bike.
\v/