www.boxertrix.com

Sort of related to another thread.
There's a lot of misunderstanding about what this actually means.
A lot of dealers believe this is a way of admonishing themselves from any responsibilities in relation to a used vehicle they are selling.

‘Sold as Seen’ is a meaningless statement that dealers use to escape liability for the products they sell.
It is both illegal and improper to use this kind of statement as it has no firm basis in UK law.

https://theusedcarguy.co.uk/car-scams/s ... think-not/

fontana wrote:Sort of related to another thread.
There's a lot of misunderstanding about what this actually means.
A lot of dealers believe this is a way of admonishing themselves from any responsibilities in relation to a used vehicle they are selling.

‘Sold as Seen’ is a meaningless statement that dealers use to escape liability for the products they sell.
It is both illegal and improper to use this kind of statement as it has no firm basis in UK law.

https://theusedcarguy.co.uk/car-scams/s ... think-not/

Unless all it relates to is muck.

I've no doubt that the bike Chester Motorrad have got listed will come with some sort of very basic warranty (3 months?) - I can't really see them trying to get out of any of their legal responsibilities, can you? Unless, of course, you're not in any way whatsoever alluding to Steve's post....

And I don't believe that the use of the phrase 'sold as seen' is illegal. It may very well not mean anything, because the Consumer Rights Act 2015 negates anything like that anyway, but its not illegal to use it. Unless you can point us to the legislation that says it is, of course!

Pete

milleplod wrote:

fontana wrote:Sort of related to another thread.
There's a lot of misunderstanding about what this actually means.
A lot of dealers believe this is a way of admonishing themselves from any responsibilities in relation to a used vehicle they are selling.

‘Sold as Seen’ is a meaningless statement that dealers use to escape liability for the products they sell.
It is both illegal and improper to use this kind of statement as it has no firm basis in UK law.

https://theusedcarguy.co.uk/car-scams/s ... think-not/

Unless all it relates to is muck.

I've no doubt that the bike Chester Motorrad have got listed will come with some sort of very basic warranty (3 months?) - I can't really see them trying to get out of any of their legal responsibilities, can you? Unless, of course, you're not in any way whatsoever alluding to Steve's post....

And I don't believe that the use of the phrase 'sold as seen' is illegal. It may very well not mean anything, because the Consumer Rights Act 2015 negates anything like that anyway, but its not illegal to use it. Unless you can point us to the legislation that says it is, of course!

Pete

You're right Pete, as a BMW dealership we're obliged to put two years Europe wide warranty and two years Europe wide emergency service on Approved Used BMW's. The bike it too old to be an AUB and for us to put that warranty on (as we have to buy the warranty from BMW UK)

Typically older bikes and none BMW's get sent to traders but this one is so rare given it's lived in a vacuum bubble thing for years, any dirt that's on it is from it being ridden in on a shitty day and having a cursory clean for the showroom. It seemed a shame to send it to a trader and it was felt it could provide an economically priced lovely bike for someone. But there's always one moaning Minnie who snipes at everything.

There's plenty of legislation to protect the public from unscrupulous dealers, but virtually none to protect from unscrupulous members of the public. Whilst there may be some independent dealers at the cheaper end of the market a BMW franchisee has way too much money invested to be involved with anything shady or illegal/immoral

milleplod wrote:I've no doubt that the bike Chester Motorrad have got listed will come with some sort of very basic warranty (3 months?) - I can't really see them trying to get out of any of their legal responsibilities, can you? Unless, of course, you're not in any way whatsoever alluding to Steve's post....

OK so what do you suppose sold as seen means, in the context of the bike being referred too.

milleplod wrote:And I don't believe that the use of the phrase 'sold as seen' is illegal. It may very well not mean anything, because the Consumer Rights Act 2015 negates anything like that anyway, but its not illegal to use it. Unless you can point us to the legislation that says it is, of course!

Pete

Here ya go

"It is an offence to display any sign which tries to limit a buyer's rights. Do not use signs like 'No Refunds' or 'Sold as Seen'. As well as being illegal, these signs do not, in fact, limit buyers' rights at all".

That's straight from the fair trading act.

Guess you won't be rushing to see Steve and buy it then Fontana, I'm sure he will be most disappointed

Al.

As a trader you are quite within your rights to write 'no warranty given/implied', as contrary to popular public opinion there is no automatic warranty in law.

There are however statutory rights under the SOGA and traders cannot write 'sold as seen' or 'trade sale' on an invoice for a vehicle that is being sold to the public.

Traders can also write 'sold for spares/repair purposes' but some common sense has to be applied to this, you cannot for instance sell a two year old mint car on that basis.

Under the SOGA you would not have many rights in reality when purchasing a £500 Corsa say.

Given a responsible dealership is obliged to advise any known issues, and that the vehicle will be thoroughly check by BMW technicians, it has to be a better bet than buying privately

Al wrote:Guess you won't be rushing to see Steve and buy it then Fontana, I'm sure he will be most disappointed

Al.

gutted

slparry wrote:Given a responsible dealership is obliged to advise any known issues, and that the vehicle will be thoroughly check by BMW technicians, it has to be a better bet than buying privately

Only if that dealer is providing a warranty.
The fact is this is not a £500 Corsa.
£3,500 may be parking change for you, but for many it's a lot of money.
I'm in no doubt that the bike in question is very nice, but you can't have your cake and eat it.
If you're going to sell a bike like this, and make money out of it, then you have to provide a responsible service.
There is no way around that.
Advertising as sold as seen is not only misleading, but is not the way I would expect a high end responsible dealership like yours to market a bike.
I know that my local BMW dealership would never employ tactics like that.
If it's something they can't provide a warranty of at least three months on, they trade it out.

All the info you need is here.
I suggest you get your manager to look at it.

http://www.bolton.gov.uk/website/pages/ ... dvice.aspx

Perhaps apply a bit of common sense fontana, just a thought.....

In this context, 'sold as seen' surely means, as mentioned earlier, that its not going to be brought up to the 'Approved Used' standard that dealers normally operate under, and therefore it won't have the associated mega-warranty. I'd have no problem, if I was in the market for the bike, buying it from Chester Motorrad, safe in the knowledge that I'd have the same sort of minimal warranty offered by the many hundreds of small bike traders out there every day, together with the protection offered by all sorts of consumer legislation.

And why on earth would you say '£3,500 may be parking change for you, but for many it's a lot of money.'? Its unnecessary and says more about your mindset than anything else.

Pete

I am no expert, but as far as I can see (and as much as it pains me to say it) Fontana seems to be correct.

Dealers quite simply should not be using the terminology 'sold as seen' when selling to the public. I am sure there is more appropriate terminology that conveys the same message, that the bike or car or whatever is sold without a specific warranty, but the consumers rights are unaffected.

As far as I can see, if a dealer writes 'sold as seen' on the paperwork, any contract is null and void anyway, so a dealer would be wise to avoid using this statement to protect themselves, not just the customer.

I bought my 1200 'sold as seen' from a dealer back in 2008 and although it now seems the dealer was technically committing an offence, it was always clear that while the bike was sold without an approved warranty, the dealer would make sure I was looked after if anything cropped up. Reputation after all is everything to an authorised BMW dealer.

To the bike in question on the other thread.....it does look extremely nice. I might check my parking change, see if I can rustle up enough.

I seriously doubt that any reputable dealer would put 'sold as seen' on an invoice, that would be inviting problems I would've thought. But, as I said above, putting it into context as used on the eBay listing, its a phrase that anyone with any common sense would surely understand.

Pete

milleplod wrote:I seriously doubt that any reputable dealer would put 'sold as seen' on an invoice, that would be inviting problems I would've thought. But, as I said above, putting it into context as used on the eBay listing, its a phrase that anyone with any common sense would surely understand.

Pete

Common sense and the law don't always go hand in hand. I think the phrase is being misused, probably by the motor industry as a whole, simply through naivety of laws / guidelines that are clearly not being enforced.

I have no doubt that a reputable franchised dealer, car or bike, will not try to shirk their legal responsibility to the customer, but there is probably a sizable lot of non-franchised dealers (possible some franchised as well for that matter) that will attempt to limit any future liability. Sold as seen mate, init!

Herb wrote:

milleplod wrote:I seriously doubt that any reputable dealer would put 'sold as seen' on an invoice, that would be inviting problems I would've thought. But, as I said above, putting it into context as used on the eBay listing, its a phrase that anyone with any common sense would surely understand.

Pete

Common sense and the law don't always go hand in hand. I think the phrase is being misused, probably by the motor industry as a whole, simply through naivety of laws / guidelines that are clearly not being enforced.

I have no doubt that a reputable franchised dealer, car or bike, will not try to shirk their legal responsibility to the customer, but there is probably a sizable lot of non-franchised dealers (possible some franchised as well for that matter) that will attempt to limit any future liability. Sold as seen mate, init!

Agreed....I was just referring to the bike on eBay that's mentioned in Steve's post.

Pete

milleplod wrote:I seriously doubt that any reputable dealer would put 'sold as seen' on an invoice, that would be inviting problems I would've thought. But, as I said above, putting it into context as used on the eBay listing, its a phrase that anyone with any common sense would surely understand.

Pete

So then using the common sense you say I lack, define "sold as seen" in the context of the add..
I'll then contact the dealership and find out if you're right.

You don't need my input fontana. If you're so intent on prolonging this, get on with it....or stfu.

Pete