Selling?

[tanneman]

Thinking of selling the 11S and getting a K1300S. I don't know if it is worth it to replace both bikes with one. The Adventure has proven to be a very good touring bike but the vibrations of the parallel twin leaves my throttle hand numb. She had a pampered life even though I spend quite a few days with her on the track. She is not made for track day antics but performed amicably. Really like the bike. Moving house is on the cards for next year so the money from the GSA sale would come in handy. I want something a bit more smoother and had a look at Blackbirds and ZZR1400s that can satisfy me wanting something else. In the end a shaft drive for touring makes sense, meaning I don't have to carry a can of lubricant especially when the luggage is less generous than the GSA. The K1300S seems to be the do all bike in the 4 cylinder range of BMW. Good thing is that I have time and nothing has to happen any time soon.

[Gromit]

Far be it to put you off the K13, but don't let chain drive sway your decision either way. I run a Touring Scottoiler on the Blackbird and it's brilliant.

First C&S set (the Honda original) lasted 47k miles.
2nd set has done 32k miles and easily got another 10k left in it.

The only time I need to adjust the chain is when the bike needs a new back tyre. One fill of the Touring reservoir lasts approx 2000 miles.

Top quality C&S set (ie DID gold) is about £160 fitted.

I'm biased - of course I am, and would openly admit it - but I've had the Blackbird nearly 7 years now and love it. Took a while to 'get it' (and I can understand those who don't like it after a test ride) but I really have no idea what I'd replace it with now. Only real downside - if it is one - is that it's a bit old hat now.

[Blackal]

With those criteria -

What about a new R1200LC, and fit it with road-alloys and tyres?

Get the basic model and throw on a pair of Wilbers/Ohlins if you aren't a fan of all things electronic.

Al

[tanneman]

Grommit, most Blackbird owners are biased. I have a friend with one and he would never part with it. Says it is the smoothest bike he has ridden, he does own a few other. Problem is to get a test ride on one this time of year. I would like a clear dry day to take one for a spin when I'm not on shift. I read quite a bit of the owners views of the bike and Ride Mag had 2 reviews of the bike. Basically it has very few things to go wrong. Engines are bulletproof. It is good enough to surprise a K1300S owner friend when he took one for a ride.

Having ridden the K1300S at Cadwell and some years later on the road all I can say is that it is a stonking engine, want to lift the front in 4th over the mountain. More comfortable than the 11S for me anyway even though it feels the seat, handlebar, foot peg, dimensions is very close to the 11S. Ridiculous speeds are easily attained even 2 up and it handles beautiful. Missus like it as she likes the 11S. Few issues concerning the handle bar switches and radiator corrosion if you ride it all year long. If you fancy to lift the handle bars one way of doing it is by fitting a K1200/1300 top yoke or fork bridge as it is known.

Blackal, I don't know if I'll get a new GS LC or the ADV LC. Prices for those machines are quite steep. Yes it does all you want it to do in comfort. Having ridden the LC a few times for some time all I can say is that it is totally different from the hexhead GS. Problem is that when it it comes to selling the thing like I'm selling mine there are shed loads of the things for sale and you have to price the thing sensibly and low. The ESA has made me very lazy. All I do is set the tyre pressure for 1 or 2 up, set the suspension by pressing a button and off we go. Very convenient. Of my friends who owns a GS's and other bikes the GS is the default choice for a ride out. Spoken to Matt Hull at Snetterton this year and he said it is such a good bike. I followed him around the circuit and he was confident enough to leave black lines out of the corners. It is very capable.

I have time so will see what happens. I said to the missus that a bike is like a tool. You have to have one for every job at hand. The GSA is good at touring, ok on a track day (giggles) but piss poor on any off road stuff for average Joe. The 11S is a sports tourer, good enough for the road, does well on the track but is not made to haul 2 plus camping kit for 2 weeks in Europe. It can be done but not in the same class as a GSA. Here in lies the problem, the roles of my bikes overlap so it feels like I'm riding a touring machine all the time.

What do I want? Basically a bike for touring duties that doesn't numb my hand, a bike to ride regularly and can take the missus in comfort. Something with more power or drive ability than the GSA hexhead for those overtakes fully loaded. Should I have a look at the KTM 1190 ADV? I need a dedicated track bike for the risk of taking my pride and joy is always in the back of my mind and as you get faster the risk increases. Track days can wait a while till I make my mind up. I fancy to do the TBEC enduros so an enduro bike is on the cards in the future before my joints get too fragile. My experience with biking is that it is very much down to personal preference. What is good for one don't work for the next guy. Buying and selling a bike till I find one that I like is not what I have in mind or want to do.

[Blackal]

Strictly speaking - you need three bikes

I have enjoyed the 7yrs that I have had a 1200Adv, and done 40,000 miles on - but realise that apart from the large tank - I would have been better with the normal GS.

So - next year, that's what I'm changing to. It will still carry the required amount of luggage, but will be a bit nimbler on the twisties.

If I was limited to just the one bike - the KTM 1190 might just be the choice (or even the KTM990smt) - but the new GS with the much-vaunted Tourance Next - fits the bill.

Sure - everyone has a GS, but there's a reason for that?

Do you drop a bundle on resale? Probably no more (and prob less) than your average Triumph/Yamaha/Ducati model.

An ex-police rider of some not-inconsiderable talent - told me that the K1200s was the fastest bike he and his colleagues had tested on the A6, point to point (against fireblades, R-1s, Hayabusas, etc). So - it's a good bike on a lot of decent roads, but fastest point-to-point doesn't necessarily equate to enjoyable riding.

(sorry if the prev sounds like a lecture - not meant to be............ if your heart is telling you to buy a K-s - you should do it)

Al

[bobtail]

Having owned both a Blackbird (3 of them!) and now a K1200S I can say that they are both stonking bikes and very similar. The K12 is obviously different in the suspenders dept. and the fact that it's shaft drive but all 3 of the Blackbirds I had were stupendous. Think you can tell that I liked the marque by having a few of them and I don't really think that Honda have come up with a replacement for this bike. It could tour so easily with two and all the luggage but when you opened her up......woweee......and once the luggage was off it was no slouch in the scratching dept. as well. The K12 does everything that the BB did but slightly differently possibly a tad more stable into bends and you can get the power down just that bit earlier on exit but that's just nanno seconds in it. In my opinion either of these marques are superb and you would not be disappointed choosing one or the other and as Gromit says if you go the BB route just spend a few quid on that Scottoiler once fixed it's forgotten about.

B.

[Steve1200S]

Not rode a K1200/1300S, but if my 1200GT's engine is anything to go by, it's a monster when compared to a boxer.

I do like the blackbird, and wish Honda would replace it, but I'm not generally a fan of sporty riding positions. For me having my lower arms parallel to the road (giving the most effective steering input) without leaning forward and being uncomfortable is key.

Have you thought about a GT? It would suit your touring and 2-up requirements better than an S, and bridge the gap between the GS and 11S more than an S would... not slow either!

Seems to be lots of nice red K1300GTs around at the moment.

[Gromit]

I do like the blackbird, and wish Honda would replace it, but I'm not generally a fan of sporty riding positions.

This is pretty much the only real complaint I have with the BB - it's not overly comfy over high-mileage days and it's purely down to riding position. It can be cured very easily though with bar-risers if it became a problem. I've got a set in a drawer in the garage at home but never used them.

Honda dropped a b*llock when it came to replacing the 'Bird - ie they didn't. It's one reason why used values are still so high. A friend of mine runs a VFR1200 now which he went to after a Kwak ZZR1400 and loves it. Supremely fast, very comfy, shaft drive - downsides are fuel consumption isn't brilliant (mind you he does cane it) and it's looks are 'challenging'.

The 12GT option makes sense - the fastest pipe'n'slippers on the block.

[conkerman]

I have a bit of a yearning still for a BB. I'm a shortarse though (well, short legs).

Chain wouldn't put me off the right bike. 15min clean and lube each week (or month with a scottoiler) and you are reet.

[Harry Lime]

Deleted.

[tanneman]

The biggest problem with a shaft drive is the weight that it carries on the bearing. Like the K1200LT which is a heavy bike and rear drive failures of this machine is well documented in the states. I changed the final drive oil every 6000mls and so far no problem. It is a clean system and I like to keep my bikes clean.

I hope to test ride a Blackbird in the near future to satisfy my curiosity. You pay 15K for a GS LC TE and with 12K you can buy a low mileage Blackbird and SP2. Not that I'll dare to take the SP2 on track.

Just to mention that the K1300S is a different machine to the K1200S with a different character.

[Corvus]

The biggest problem with a shaft drive is the weight that it carries on the bearing. ......

Sorry but I don't understand. Which bearing? What weight? What is the " it" you are referring to?

Apologies, but I sincerely don't understand what you mean.

[tanneman]

The weight of the bike and rider plus whatever is loaded on the bike is carried by the wheel bearings or final drive shaft bearing (the one that supports the shaft 90deg to the swingarm, no7 in the drawing, taken from a 2009 GS Adventure). This load will be spread between the front and rear wheels. It is the same principle as weighing the bike with 2 scales, each scale under a wheel and then add up the readings to get the total weight. Loading a bike with luggage disturbs/moves the centre of gravity towards the point where the load is placed, in the case of a bike it will be towards the rear/rear seat. This can be observed by placing load on the bike while on the scales. The reading on the scale under the rear wheel will increase proportionately more than the reading at the front scale meaning the rear wheel carries more weight. Engineers have this in mind when designing the bike so there will be an acceptable volume in which the CofG can move for the bike to remain stable. So far so good in a static environment. When the bike moves, dynamic environment, more forces will act and influence the CofG like turning, leaning, accelerating, braking. The movement of the suspension especially shock loads like potholes transmits through the wheel bearings. All this together with temperature and oil quality, degrading of lubricant, design/mounting of the bearing serves to shorten the life of the load bearing component which in this case is a bearing.

There is a reason why the panniers have weight restrictions. Part to lessen the load on the final drive bearing, the loading of the subframe, load rating of the tyres to name a few.

I hope that you understand the way I have explained.

[Corvus]

The weight of the bike and rider plus whatever is loaded on the bike is carried by the wheel bearings or final drive shaft bearing (the one that supports the shaft 90deg to the swingarm, no7 in the drawing, taken from a 2009 GS Adventure). This load will be spread between the front and rear wheels. It is the same principle as weighing the bike with 2 scales, each scale under a wheel and then add up the readings to get the total weight. Loading a bike with luggage disturbs/moves the centre of gravity towards the point where the load is placed, in the case of a bike it will be towards the rear/rear seat. This can be observed by placing load on the bike while on the scales. The reading on the scale under the rear wheel will increase proportionately more than the reading at the front scale meaning the rear wheel carries more weight. Engineers have this in mind when designing the bike so there will be an acceptable volume in which the CofG can move for the bike to remain stable. So far so good in a static environment. When the bike moves, dynamic environment, more forces will act and influence the CofG like turning, leaning, accelerating, braking. The movement of the suspension especially shock loads like potholes transmits through the wheel bearings. All this together with temperature and oil quality, degrading of lubricant, design/mounting of the bearing serves to shorten the life of the load bearing component which in this case is a bearing.

There is a reason why the panniers have weight restrictions. Part to lessen the load on the final drive bearing, the loading of the subframe, load rating of the tyres to name a few.

I hope that you understand the way I have explained.

Right. I understand now. But would that put you off all shaft drive bikes? Any design, chain included, could have flaws. The main difference I can see between chain and shaft is that bevel gears impart an axial load from transmission reactions, associated with transmitted torque. But I see what you mean, specifically in regard to the bmw paralever design. Is their design really that weak? What about the jap options?

[tanneman]

No, I don't mind chain or shaft. For road duties like touring it is a good design. The only thing to keep in mind is loading the bike. We, by that I mean the missus and me, pack only the necessary stuff for touring. The aim is to keep the weight low which make for a better ride and handling. For off road and track days the use is a bit limited and not ideal. Basically the engine layout is not ideal for this application as used by BMW in the boxer configuration. If you can ride it well then no problem, just think back to the boxercup series and the HP2 GS at Ertzberg. But a well maintained chain is still the most efficient way to transmit power to the rear wheel. Neglect the chain and sprocket and you can end up with catastrophic failure, wear on the output shaft, cush drives, wheel bearings, sprockets, chain stretch. In the end it comes down to maintenance and how you care for your machine.

Blackal, I just like the looks of the K1300S and having ridden it before it feels good. Yes, I would need 3 bikes for what I intend to do but one thing at a time. I still spend the majority of the time on the road so a road bike first. So many bikes, so little time.