Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 8:16 am
This thread is becoming as cynical as some of those on the GS forum !! 
Std figures
1) HP2 - Claimed 132 bhp = real 118hp = 14 bhp loss
2) 12S - Claimed 122 BHP - Real 104 BHP = 18 BHP Loss
Hardly a yawning chasm in terms of drive train loss is it ?
"I have seen curves at the rear wheel for standard 1200s' and they seem to be between 102 and 104HP. So nearly 105 with an Akra is in the ballpark. "
Thanks for retaining a grip on reality Herb -
After the base run, Geoff asked me what I thought the 12S was producing. I have been around bikes for 40 years now and have a fairly accurate seat of the pants dyno. My guess was 105. This despite the fact that the bike was fast as feck beforehand.
As a comparison, GSs were putting out around 84 bhp base runs on the same dyno that day. The record for the latest twin cam engine is 88bhp. I prefer to think of these figures as real world rather than the usual hyped claims of manufacturers.
There are of course the cynics who would suggest they are artificially low to make the power hikes seem greater.
One slight problem with his theory though.
The good old seat of the pants dyno...
No matter how good/bad or deceitful a dyno operator is, he(she?) can't hide how the bike feels afterwards...and...
my bike has been transformed... it is smoother everywhere, pulls harder and accelerates in top gear MUCH faster than before (I have the optional higher final drive fitted to the bike
) So to be quite frank I dont really care what the figures show, the remap has been worth every penny.
I paid £330 as we booked a group of four in - that group rate applies if there are another four forum members wanting to have a bash...and yes he does do 1100's and 1150's although the gains are described as significant but not as dramatic as the 1200's.
I will be removing the PCIII wideband setup from my GS as soon as time & funds allow and also getting that done..
Below are comments of two of the other guys who went with me on the day red is a 1200RT, blue is 1200GS (which had a bit of run out in the back wheel)
Hi Guys – was great to meet with you all yesterday – hope everyone had a safe ride home! Thanks especially to Simon for the organisation and wheeler dealing for the discount.
Thanks for the feedback all, this is really interesting.
I’m not yet 100% sure what I think! Here is what I do know:
Ø Pick-up from low revs in any gear is now doable (3rd was highest to pull from 30mph before – now doable in 5th)
Ø Snatching seems to have gone but I have only really done hi-speed running so far.
Ø Roll on in top gear is astronomical!!! I actually can’t believe how quickly it picks up and just goes!
Ø I did have a bit of a hole in 5th gear – just was not a responsive gear in the past – now it just pulls and pulls and seems to go on till the limiter (not quite made it up there yet though!).
Ø The overriding impression from the moment I rode away from Hilltop was that the engine just ‘wants’ to rev. Before I had to force it to press on now it’s a bit of holding back to get the same results.
It has definitely done something for the better and quite honestly it has done what I wanted even if I don’t notice anything else. I just wanted a bit more pep and I got that and some...
Geoff reckoned that my Twinc was the record holder for standard BHP at 88 and 73ft/lb, so he didn’t think he’d squeeze too much more out of it. But the outcome was 104 bhp and 80.7ft/lb. I don’t think the % uplift is accurate when applying it to the crank bhp but it must put it somewhere up at 127 bhp or so. Bugger that’s ridiculous! ;-}
Cause it was the first twinc RT he’d had through (I think that’s what he said anyway) he decided to do a top speed run on it too. So, compensated for aerodynamics by using a 6% gradient on the run he topped it out at 150.8 mph ?????????????????????????? Feck!
I won’t be able to ride again until week after next so will post more if I get some further data. VERY interested in knowing how your fuel consumption is affected (though playing with the extra power will likely hurt it a little) so keep us posted if you notice a difference.
Hi folks
Firstly, Simon, many thanks for organising and sorting out the discount for us all. Secondly, Dave, many thanks for the full diagnostic check afterwards to put my mind at rest...that's a brilliant set up you have there (and some gorgeous bikes). I went home via Matlock Bath and some smaller Derbyshire roads so didn't get home until around 5...but (as we had discussed)...I was fine because it was, "after lunch"...exactly as I had predicted.
Well, I didn't see 135 but, out of curiosity, I checked my Sat Nav and I did record an actual 110 as Dave's bike disappeared into the distance. There was definitely some vibration at that speed which I assume is from the back wheel but there's no sign of any problem at normal speeds. Having got home, the wheel seems only fractionally out...you really have to look for it...the dyno really emphasised the problem...I'm glad it did.
The effect on the GS is indistinguishable (for me) from my previous GS even though that had the Catless Keihan headers) so I wont be tinkering with this one any more. There are cheaper ways available to me to lose combined rider/ bike weight
I'm really pleased with the results...the bike is just so much more responsive and eager and the revs build very smoothly and progressively up to the gear change. This is exactly what I was hoping for and it suits my riding style perfectly. I spend quite a bit of my time on very tight B roads, probably gravel strewn. I sampled some of these on my way home and (like my old GS), I find second is now a really useful gear, with plenty of grunt to get you up unexpected uphill stretches.
I think I mentioned that my old GS averaged 45-48mph but for some reason this one seemed to do a bit better before the Hilltop experience. Well, I filled up on the way home and for the last stretch saw a surprising 55mpg. That won't be representative but it seems to be a positive indication. I'll be doing my regular trip to Rochdale this week so it'll be interesting to wee how it goes.
In short, very satisfied customer and I definitely want to be there to see n RT do 150mph!
Cheers all
At the end of the day, yer pays yer money and all that. Personally I just want my bikes to run the best they can... I don't really give a feck about horsepower claims.
The debate on the GS forum will send your head wrong, but there is one thing that isn't up for debate. I have yet to see any negative claims from owners who have actually had the work done ... and no I don't have any connection with Hilltop.
Your choose
Std figures
1) HP2 - Claimed 132 bhp = real 118hp = 14 bhp loss
2) 12S - Claimed 122 BHP - Real 104 BHP = 18 BHP Loss
Hardly a yawning chasm in terms of drive train loss is it ?
"I have seen curves at the rear wheel for standard 1200s' and they seem to be between 102 and 104HP. So nearly 105 with an Akra is in the ballpark. "
Thanks for retaining a grip on reality Herb -
After the base run, Geoff asked me what I thought the 12S was producing. I have been around bikes for 40 years now and have a fairly accurate seat of the pants dyno. My guess was 105. This despite the fact that the bike was fast as feck beforehand.
As a comparison, GSs were putting out around 84 bhp base runs on the same dyno that day. The record for the latest twin cam engine is 88bhp. I prefer to think of these figures as real world rather than the usual hyped claims of manufacturers.
There are of course the cynics who would suggest they are artificially low to make the power hikes seem greater.
One slight problem with his theory though.
The good old seat of the pants dyno...
No matter how good/bad or deceitful a dyno operator is, he(she?) can't hide how the bike feels afterwards...and...
my bike has been transformed... it is smoother everywhere, pulls harder and accelerates in top gear MUCH faster than before (I have the optional higher final drive fitted to the bike
) So to be quite frank I dont really care what the figures show, the remap has been worth every penny.I paid £330 as we booked a group of four in - that group rate applies if there are another four forum members wanting to have a bash...and yes he does do 1100's and 1150's although the gains are described as significant but not as dramatic as the 1200's.
I will be removing the PCIII wideband setup from my GS as soon as time & funds allow and also getting that done..
Below are comments of two of the other guys who went with me on the day red is a 1200RT, blue is 1200GS (which had a bit of run out in the back wheel)
Hi Guys – was great to meet with you all yesterday – hope everyone had a safe ride home! Thanks especially to Simon for the organisation and wheeler dealing for the discount.
Thanks for the feedback all, this is really interesting.
I’m not yet 100% sure what I think! Here is what I do know:
Ø Pick-up from low revs in any gear is now doable (3rd was highest to pull from 30mph before – now doable in 5th)
Ø Snatching seems to have gone but I have only really done hi-speed running so far.
Ø Roll on in top gear is astronomical!!! I actually can’t believe how quickly it picks up and just goes!
Ø I did have a bit of a hole in 5th gear – just was not a responsive gear in the past – now it just pulls and pulls and seems to go on till the limiter (not quite made it up there yet though!).
Ø The overriding impression from the moment I rode away from Hilltop was that the engine just ‘wants’ to rev. Before I had to force it to press on now it’s a bit of holding back to get the same results.
It has definitely done something for the better and quite honestly it has done what I wanted even if I don’t notice anything else. I just wanted a bit more pep and I got that and some...
Geoff reckoned that my Twinc was the record holder for standard BHP at 88 and 73ft/lb, so he didn’t think he’d squeeze too much more out of it. But the outcome was 104 bhp and 80.7ft/lb. I don’t think the % uplift is accurate when applying it to the crank bhp but it must put it somewhere up at 127 bhp or so. Bugger that’s ridiculous! ;-}
Cause it was the first twinc RT he’d had through (I think that’s what he said anyway) he decided to do a top speed run on it too. So, compensated for aerodynamics by using a 6% gradient on the run he topped it out at 150.8 mph ?????????????????????????? Feck!
I won’t be able to ride again until week after next so will post more if I get some further data. VERY interested in knowing how your fuel consumption is affected (though playing with the extra power will likely hurt it a little) so keep us posted if you notice a difference.
Hi folks
Firstly, Simon, many thanks for organising and sorting out the discount for us all. Secondly, Dave, many thanks for the full diagnostic check afterwards to put my mind at rest...that's a brilliant set up you have there (and some gorgeous bikes). I went home via Matlock Bath and some smaller Derbyshire roads so didn't get home until around 5...but (as we had discussed)...I was fine because it was, "after lunch"...exactly as I had predicted.
Well, I didn't see 135 but, out of curiosity, I checked my Sat Nav and I did record an actual 110 as Dave's bike disappeared into the distance. There was definitely some vibration at that speed which I assume is from the back wheel but there's no sign of any problem at normal speeds. Having got home, the wheel seems only fractionally out...you really have to look for it...the dyno really emphasised the problem...I'm glad it did.
The effect on the GS is indistinguishable (for me) from my previous GS even though that had the Catless Keihan headers) so I wont be tinkering with this one any more. There are cheaper ways available to me to lose combined rider/ bike weight
I'm really pleased with the results...the bike is just so much more responsive and eager and the revs build very smoothly and progressively up to the gear change. This is exactly what I was hoping for and it suits my riding style perfectly. I spend quite a bit of my time on very tight B roads, probably gravel strewn. I sampled some of these on my way home and (like my old GS), I find second is now a really useful gear, with plenty of grunt to get you up unexpected uphill stretches.
I think I mentioned that my old GS averaged 45-48mph but for some reason this one seemed to do a bit better before the Hilltop experience. Well, I filled up on the way home and for the last stretch saw a surprising 55mpg. That won't be representative but it seems to be a positive indication. I'll be doing my regular trip to Rochdale this week so it'll be interesting to wee how it goes.
In short, very satisfied customer and I definitely want to be there to see n RT do 150mph!
Cheers all
At the end of the day, yer pays yer money and all that. Personally I just want my bikes to run the best they can... I don't really give a feck about horsepower claims.
The debate on the GS forum will send your head wrong, but there is one thing that isn't up for debate. I have yet to see any negative claims from owners who have actually had the work done ... and no I don't have any connection with Hilltop.
Your choose
![[smilie=head bash.gif]](./images/smilies/head%20bash.gif "head bash")